study finds "Ex-Gay" therapy works (88 views) (Closed for Posting) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-3 9:54 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 27)  
 
  735.1  
 
Source: http://www.mcjonline.com/news/03a/20031102b.shtml

Study Finds "Ex-Gay" 
Therapy Works 
( BP) -- The man who led the charge in the 1970s to remove homosexuality from a list of mental disorders now says that those claiming to be "ex-gay" are telling the truth. 

Robert Spitzer's finding that some homosexuals can become heterosexuals is sure to re-ignite the debate over the effectiveness of such organizations as Exodus International, which seeks to reach homosexuals with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Three decades ago Spitzer helped lead the charge to take homosexuality off the American Psychiatric Association's list of mental disorders. 

Spitzer's study, along with critical analysis from peers, is published in the October 2003 edition of the Archives of Sexual Behavior. He announced his findings in 2001 but had yet to publish them in an academic journal. 

His study involved 45-minute telephone interviews with 200 people claiming to be former homosexuals -- 143 men, 57 women. They had to meet certain criteria, such as reporting "at least some minimal change" from homosexuality to heterosexuality that lasted at least five years. 

For the purpose of the paper he called all forms of therapy -- religious and non-religious -- "reparative therapy." 

"This study ... clearly goes beyond anecdotal information and provides evidence that reparative therapy is sometimes successful," Spitzer wrote. "For the participants in our study, there was no evidence of harm [from reparative therapy]. To the contrary, they reported that it was helpful in a variety of ways beyond changing sexual orientation itself." 

One argument against reparative therapy is that it will trigger depression in homosexuals. Spitzer, though, found just the opposite to be true: Those who had undergone reparative therapy had experienced far less depression. Forty-three percent of males and 47 percent of females reported being "markedly" or "extremely" depressed before their therapy. But that number dropped significantly after therapy, with only 1 percent of males and 4 percent of females in the study reporting having been depressed at any time during the year preceding the interview. 

"Participants reported benefit from nonsexual changes, such as decreased depression, a greater sense of masculinity in males, and femininity in females, and developing intimate nonsexual relations with members of the same sex," he wrote. "There is no doubt about what the participants in the study reported. The key question is judging the credibility of their self-reports." 

Spitzer acknowledged the controversial nature of the study. The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, National Association of Social Work and American Counseling Association all have issued position papers warning of possible harm of reparative therapy, he noted. 

His colleagues criticized the report in a series of analytical pieces in the journal. Some said the study's subjects had an agenda and exaggerated the truth; others said the subjects were simply "bisexual." 

"When I started the study and told colleagues about it, I was greeted with anger and disbelief that I would be so foolish as to believe what ex-gays said about themselves," he wrote. "I therefore should have realized that, despite any methodological improvements in assessment of change that I could incorporate into the study (such as the use of a fully structured interview schedule with detailed questions assessing multiple components of sexual orientation), many critics would never accept the subject's self-reports as credible." 

The average age of the men in the study was 42, the average age of the women 44. Sixty-six percent of the men and 47 percent of the women were married. 

The study showed that some of the subjects were still struggling with the change. Of the 158 participants who were no longer in therapy, 13 percent of the men and 10 percent of the women reported that since undergoing therapy they had had a brief occurrence -- usually only a few days -- of "overt homosexual behavior." But only two of these occurrences had happened in the previous year. 

Only 11 percent of the men and 37 percent of the women reported a "complete" break from homosexuality -- that is, not even occasionally thinking a lustful thought. 

Forty-three percent of the participants learned about the study from religious ministries while 23 percent learned about it from the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, a group of professionals who offer therapy to homosexuals wishing to change. Ninety-three percent said that religion was "extremely" or "very" important in their lives. 

Indiana University's John Bancroft argued that the subjects were biased. 

"Given their powerful agenda of promoting such treatment, it would be surprising if they did not overestimate the amount of change," he wrote. 

But Spitzer asserted that if the subjects were lying they would not have admitted to their continuing struggles. 

"If there was significant bias, one might expect that many participants would report complete or near complete change in all sexual orientation measures ... ," he wrote. 

On average the subjects began having homosexual thoughts at age 12 and began undergoing therapy at age 30. 




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 11/4/2003 12:57:42 AM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-4 11:21 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 27)  
 
  735.2 in reply to 735.1  
 
200 people isn't really enough to base a study of this enormity on in my opinion. 
It's just one more way of pushing personal beliefs upon someone.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-4 11:45 am  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (3 of 27)  
 
  735.3 in reply to 735.2  
 
When I saw that and posted it I knew that you would be the first to comment on it.

 

Of course with your vast Opinion, which now appears to be just one biased opinion.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Nov-4 11:51 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 27)  
 
  735.4 in reply to 735.1  
 
Wow, David!  This is great!   Of course, the negative responses from his colleagues is to be expected, as is the idea that these ex-gays do not know anything about themselves.  [and even that they are actually 'bisexual.']  The truth is always negated by those who desire to remain in sin, and those who benefit from helping them remain in their sin.   

Contrary to what the other posted said about '200 people' not being enough for a good study, it most definitely is.  Esp. the way the study was done.  Also, I agree with Spitzer, that his study subjects WERE honest, else they would not have discussed their continued struggles, along with their victories.

Thanks, David!

 
 October is:
Breast Cancer Awareness month.  
 


Get a mammogram!
 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-4 12:13 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (5 of 27)  
 
  735.5 in reply to 735.4  
 
Yeah,

 

Its too funny how biased and self serving some of them are and probably because they are afraid of the unknown so this is a great study to encourage many homosexuals to break from that lifestyle. 

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Nov-4 12:23 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 27)  
 
  735.6 in reply to 735.5  
 
I hope that many will come to freedom very soon.  
 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-4 1:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (7 of 27)  
 
  735.7 in reply to 735.3  
 
You wouldn't happen to be trying to goad me would you? 
Well. 

I will say this. 

I am bisexual. 

I also have God in my life, very actively I might add. HE doesn't seem to have a problem with my bisexuality. So why do you? I am sure HE doesn't have a problem with anyone else's either. 

I can not speak for Him. But from experience. 

As I live my life, I think I am inclined to believe that Christianity is the Anti Christ, if not Christianity, then it's Churches and Church leaders. 

Too bad I fall into a Liberal Christian category, if I were to so label myself. 

A true Christian is supposed to love all, and is supposed to do unto others as would have done unto you. Those are the two biggest things Christians of today seem to fail at. They are judgemental, closed minded, bitter people. They are also the first to persecute. 

The belief that Homosexuality is a SIN is MAN MADE. It is man created, and was written BY MAN in the Bible. 

If you think I, or anyone else, is going to believe a bunch of closed minded Christians over God.. then you have another thing coming. 

He is the only person I answer to in life, and when I stray from going 'Home'.. He is sure to remind me and point me in the right direction. 

Ban me if you want. I don't care. I don't know why I bothered to come here. I love many, many more than your small mind can realize, and yes, I may criticize you here today, but you are deserving of the criticism right now. 

Open your heart, and your soul a little more to the God you profess to love and you will find life much more pleasing.
 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-4 1:55 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (8 of 27)  
 
  735.8 in reply to 735.6  
 
I have freedom. 
I quite like women, and men. 

Don't tell me I'm not free, and especially don't dare to tell someone to their face that they are not free because their sexuality doesn't stick to the Churches standards of what it is. 

The Church is nothing but one major hypocrisy. Bless the day that it falls.
 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Nov-4 2:14 pm  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (9 of 27)  
 
  735.9 in reply to 735.8  
 
Not only would I tell someone to their face that they are in sin...if they were, [and if the Lord led me to do so],  but I also tell you that you are NOT free and are indeed deceived.  Your post is contradictory and all over the place, and is common to those I've read by others who are also in rebellion and deception elsewhere.  

Christianity and Christians are not your problem:  God is.   If God is your problem, then you best get busy and seek Him.   Christ Jesus was born to die for your sin...all of our sin.   doesn't matter what the sin is:  sin is sin.  Denying you are a sinner is proof that you do not have Christ in you.  

 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-5 1:17 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (10 of 27)  
 
  735.10 in reply to 735.9  
 
You dare to tell me that I am not free, that I am being decieved? I am sorry but I sit here laughing really at the absurdity of it. 
If that helps you sleep at night, then good for you. 

Maybe you should seek God yourself, and quit *pretending* to preach His beliefs, when you preach nothing but hypocrisy and bigotry.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-5 2:42 pm  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (11 of 27)  
 
  735.11 in reply to 735.10  
 
Hi,

 

You like everyone else has issues so there is no need to whip out the drama queen act, we can all do without it.

 

Amy is being a big help to you and I never recommend this but you might want to email her privately and share some of your issues with her in a secure nonpublic way.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-5 2:53 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 27)  
 
  735.12 in reply to 735.11  
 
Where have I even once here put on a 'drama queen' act? Because I disagree with your group and it's 'beliefs'? 
Amy may think she is being a big help to me, and you may think she is, but she is not being a help to me at all, and I will not share my 'issues' with her as you seem to think I have them. Though I do, yes, everyone does. But right now my issues are wondering why people who believe in God can be so closed, so judgemental, and so condemning.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-5 3:12 pm  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (13 of 27)  
 
  735.13 in reply to 735.12  
 


Hi,

 

The act of sinful behavior does not draw us closer to God. It is not possible to fellowship with God via sin. To proclaim that sin is the answer to a relationship with God sounds very shallow.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-5 3:18 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (14 of 27)  
 
  735.14 in reply to 735.13  
 
Oh I never proclaimed sin was the way to God. 
I was, in an obviously very poor manner, trying to explain that man's definition of sin, and what falls under that 'category', maybe is not what is truly sinful. 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-5 6:07 pm  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (15 of 27)  
 
  735.15 in reply to 735.14  
 
Ok,

 

If unfaithfulness/adultery, homosexuality are not sin than what is?

 

So sin is in the blind eyes of the beholder.

 

If someone thinks you have something they want and take it its not a sin because it meets their needs?

 

Sin is a misrepresentation of God and our wrong actions of sin is what separates us from God.

 

Im curious about what and when you think sin occurs and please give a better reply than that people who disagree with you are sinners and you are not one and that the Bible has nothing to say and no place in determining sin.

 

Thanks.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-6 9:05 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 27)  
 
  735.16 in reply to 735.15  
 
Sin is not in the eye of the beholder. 
Sin is something that is morally wrong. Murder, rape, abuse, theft etc. Those things are sinful. 

I never said unfaithfulness/adultery were not a sin. Those, have nothing to do with homosexuality. 

As I said before, I never said I wasn't a sinner. I've sinned, I'm also the first to admit I have. 

If you want to continue to discuss anything with me, and possibly learn something yourself, you will have to set your judgemental attitude of me aside. I am not anything like you seem to think I am. 

It hurts me deeply to know a complete stranger would judge so harshly in just knowing that my beliefs are not the exact same as his. You can not comprehend how heavy that makes my heart feel.
 
  
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  From:  Raymond (Intbel)   Nov-6 9:41 am  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (17 of 27)  
 
  735.17 in reply to 735.16  
 
Don't take it personally. 
Bigotry is not personal except to the bigot.



~~~~~ Raymond ~~~~~   
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-6 10:38 am  
To:  Raymond (Intbel)   (18 of 27)  
 
  735.18 in reply to 735.17  
 
Of course. Because the bigot cannot see that they are one. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-6 11:17 am  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (19 of 27)  
 
  735.19 in reply to 735.16  
 
Hi,

 

You have already stated that you are involved in multiple sexual relationships, in case you didnt know it that is unfaithfulness and how many of the people that you are involve with are cheating on you creating a web of lies and deceit.

 

Your judgmental attitude towards me doesnt bother me in the least, because I would never worry about what strangers think of me at any given moment.

 

Go ahead and accept the praise and fellowship of the likes of Raymond Im sure that he is the answer to life and in Raymonds acknowledgment is the completion of salvation even much more than the Praises of Jesus.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  Raymond (Intbel)   Nov-6 11:58 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (20 of 27)  
 
  735.20 in reply to 735.19  
 
That is so funny! ROTFLOL !!!


~~~~~ Raymond ~~~~~   
  
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From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-6 1:35 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (21 of 27)  
 
  735.21 in reply to 735.19  
 
David, 
I am not judging anyone. I do not judge. Only HE does. That is the problem with mankind. They judge, more than He does. It's a shame really, that no one can see how He truly is. How skewed man has made Him, and His beliefs, wishes and hopes for us. 

I live a Godly life wether you can believe that is possible or not. 

The lessons we do not learn in our lifetime come back around on us, and little boy, I can see the lessons awaiting you in the next one.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-6 1:50 pm  
To:  Liesy (CRYSR)    (22 of 27)  
 
  735.22 in reply to 735.21  
 
Well for someone who doesnt judge anyone only He does you have just managed to judge me in this life and in my next reincarted life to come. Wow doubly judged!!

 

Fortunately reincarnation is a lie of mankind and not a Biblical truth so I dont have to worry about your judgments.

 

I do wish you the best and am sure that you will prosper in the care and love of Jesus as I have no desire to debate.

 

All the Best to you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Liesy (CRYSR)    Nov-6 2:42 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (23 of 27)  
 
  735.23 in reply to 735.22  
 
I am thankful that He does not give up on us, so readily as mankind gives up on Him. 
  
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  From:  mikael (taomikael)    Nov-6 5:20 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (24 of 27)  
 
  735.24 in reply to 735.1  
 
Mr. Brown, 
<<"His study involved 45-minute telephone interviews with 200 people claiming to be former homosexuals -- 143 men, 57 women. They had to meet certain criteria, such as reporting "at least some minimal change" from homosexuality to heterosexuality that lasted at least five years.">> 

The subjects from his study were mostly employed by or heavily involved in a leadership role in various "ex-gay" organizations. Their bias is obvious. These were the only people that he could find to participate who would claim to be "cured." There were no controls for the reseearch, no clear-cut definitions of "minimal change," nothing but anecdotes of 200 people. 

The only people who are praising the study and accepting its results are those who have a vested interest in doing so. 

--mikael
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-7 4:52 am  
To:  mikael (taomikael)    (25 of 27)  
 
  735.25 in reply to 735.24  
 
Not so.

 

He is using science with Very Tight Controlls.

 

I would be certain that the Success results away from homosexuality is Much Higher than even his conservative study reveals. There are other articles about people that have walked out of the homosexual practice.

 

Those with the vested interest are making up anything to deny it.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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Message 26 of 27 was Deleted    



   From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-7 11:38 am  
To:  ALL   (27 of 27)  
 
  735.27 in reply to 735.25  
 
This topic is going to be closed.

 

There is no need to have a long list of posts going back and forth besides some are posting Unsupported allegations with no references just their opinion yet posted as if it were a scientific study. It is unfair to the real study posted to let others post their non-study (opinion only) as a constant rebuttal.

 

The one and most substantiated fact is that there are Ex-Homosexuals of all stripes from extremely radical Homosexuals to those from only passing Homosexual activity I have seen this documented in College newspapers and inner-city, underground publications as well as the run of the mill news sources.

 

Signifying that not one single person is outside of the grace and mercy of the Lord Jesus!

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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